goinggreek.info
The Agora => Greek News => Topic started by: Mary on Thursday, 19 February, 2015 @ 17:24:21
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Germany rejects Greek request for loan extension
Shock announcement from Berlin came after Greece filed formal request to eurozone partners
Germany has rejected Greece’s proposal for an extension of its loans, saying that it fell short of the conditions expected by the rest of the eurozone.
The shock announcement from Berlin came just hours after Greece filed a formal request to its eurozone partners to extend its loan agreement, in the hope of averting a cash crisis.
Eurozone ministers are due to meet on Friday in an attempt to hammer out a deal. It will be their third attempt in 10 days to resolve a standoff that has sent jitters across the continent at the prospect of a messy Greek exit from the single currency.
The European commission had described the Greek proposal – widely seen as a climbdown on some of Greece’s key demands – as a positive sign that could pave the way for compromise.
But Germany said the Greek plan failed to meet eurozone ministers’ demands that Greece stick to its bailout programme – a set of demands laid out on Monday at an acrimonious meeting in Brussels that failed to end the deadlock.
http://www.theguardian.com/business/2015/feb/19/greece-requests-eurozone-loan-extension
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Greece has just said "take it or leave it".
You'd guess there'd be a last minute deal - for now anyway......
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It's a helluva poker game. Looks like some major compromises offered by Tsipras: most notably agreeing to work with the Troika after all, and not running a budget deficit, though aiming for a smaller surplus than required by the Memorandum to pay for some of his social measures. He is still at this stage looking for a 6 month extension of the debt and possibly still some write-down. A Guardian commentator describes this as a "white flag over Athens".
Meanwhile others are stirring the pot saying a Grexit wouldn't be so harmful to the EU as it would have been in 2012, with less risk of "contamination" to other Euro countries and better financial support in place. Most notable among these is former French President Valery Giscard-D'Estaing who promoted Greece's entry into the EU who now thinks Greece's Eurozone membership was a "mistake".
The major closing positions are the ECB have offered Greece €3.3 bn temporary cash and Berlin have issued a rapid and definite no to Greece's written proposal, leaving the markets jittery. And it's round 3 tomorrow....
Tony
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Last time I bothered looking, the EU was a democracy. Who made Germany boss?
You'd never have thought they lost the war, would you?
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Money talks!
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Money talks!
But its a shouldn't talk in a kraut accent.
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Ze Virld Vor II 'loan' was not enuff, ve vil bleed Greece to death.
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Greek PM has just said he's certain that he'll get the 6 month deal as Greece can't do any more.........
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Although the Guardian site shows Finance Ministers arriving for the meeting Ta Nea reported the start was delayed from 1730 to 1830 (Athens Time), so now underway about 25 minutes.
Ta Nea also quotes Varoufakis as saying "I hope at the end there will be white smoke". Didn't know he was also standing for Pope! :unsure:
Remarkably German Bild newspaper says that the "wrong letter" was sent on Thursday containing Greece's proposals. Apparently it was an earlier draft omitting parts that said Greece would accept bailout conditions. Apparently Tsipras apologised to Merkel by phone for an "administrative mistake". Bild is a bit of a rag but it would be amazing to make this up!!! :blink:
Tony
Tony
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Eurozone finance ministers have drafted a common text with Greece that Greek and eurozone officials said on Friday could form the basis for an agreement to extend Athens' bailout package.
http://ekathimerini.com/4dcgi/_w_articles_wsite1_1_20/02/2015_547517
Greece and eurozone nations have agreed a deal to extend financial aid after bailout talks, officials said.
Eurozone finance ministers reached an agreement to extend Greece's financial rescue by four months, according to officials on both sides.
The deal removes the immediate risk of Greece running out of money next month.
It also provides a breathing space for the new Greek government to try to negotiate longer-term debt relief with its EU creditors.
http://www.bbc.com/news/business-31556754
Eurogroup chairman Jeroen Dijsselbloem said Greece had given “their unequivocal commitment to honour their financial obligations” to creditors.
An agreement has been reached but analysts in Athens are already describing the concessions made by the Greek government as “politically poisonous,” Helena Smith reports.
http://www.theguardian.com/business/blog/live/2015/feb/20/eurozone-ministers-gather-for-crucial-greece-talks-live-updates
Live updates via Guardian link above.
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Last time I bothered looking, the EU was a democracy. Who made Germany boss?
You'd never have thought they lost the war, would you?
They certainly won the bloody peace though !
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Greek bailout: Germany claims victory as Greece agrees four-month bailout extension
Athens no longer in danger of running out of money but hardline German minister refuses longer deal
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/europe/greek-bailout-greece-and-eurozone-creditors-reach-deal-10060734.html
Greece’s finance minister, Yanis Varoufakis, claimed victory, insisting there was “no substantive difference” between the deal and a Greek compromise text that had been dismissed by Germany’s finance ministry as a Trojan horse for Athens to throw off austerity. “We are going to write our own script on the reforms that need to be enacted,” he said
But the Greek prime minister, Alexis Tsipras, will almost certainly face fierce reaction over the deal, both from hardliners in his radical left Syriza party and from the populist rightwing Anel – his junior partner in the governing coalition – for agreeing to continue with austerity measures as part of the deal, given that he was elected on an anti-austerity programme.
http://www.theguardian.com/business/2015/feb/20/eurozone-chiefs-meet-for-last-ditch-talks-to-avert-greece-cash-crunch
Reports that Greece sent wrong letter to Eurogroup are imaginary, say gov't sources
http://www.newsbomb.gr/en/story/559070/reports-that-greece-sent-wrong-letter-to-eurogroup-are-imaginary-say-gov-t-sources
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Greece debt deal: Reforms will 'combat tax evasion'
Greece will crack down on tax evasion and streamline its civil service in its bid to secure a bailout extension, minister of state Nikos Pappas says.
The government is working on a package of reforms that it must submit to international creditors on Monday.
If the reforms are approved, Greece will be granted a vital four-month extension on its debt repayments.
Mr Pappas said the reforms being proposed would take the Greek economy "out of sedation".
"We are compiling a list of measures to make the Greek civil service more effective and to combat tax evasion," he told Greece's Mega Channel.
http://m.bbc.com/news/business-31574868
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Economist Paul Krugman has argued in his latest blog entry (http://krugman.blogs.nytimes.com/2015/02/19/insert-german-curse-word-here/) that Germany is trying to force the SYRIZA-led government in Greece to abandon its proclamations and stresses that German policy is “objectively pro-Grexit”.
http://www.tovima.gr/en/article/?aid=678993
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What odds that the submission of the Syriza plan on Monday by the Varoufakis is rejected by the Germans? :nein:
This is far from over in my honest opinion.
An economic game of snakes and ladders!
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I just wonder how Tsipras and Varoufakis will go about cracking down on tax evasion? I think its a case of wishful thinking on the part of lots of people. The Greeks will be in an even more reluctant frame of mind to declare their correct taxes when they realise Tsipras and Varoufakis have backed down on all their rhetoric, which they basically have; logically thats all they could do to remain in the EZ and prevent civil unrest! Interesting times ahead for the Greeks.
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I read an article that proposed if you show your unpaid taxes you may get an initial discount of up to 50% whilst a reward will be offered to those whose taxes are up to date. I don't think it's accompanied by a lie detector.
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I just wonder how Tsipras and Varoufakis will go about cracking down on tax evasion? I think its a case of wishful thinking on the part of lots of people. The Greeks will be in an even more reluctant frame of mind to declare their correct taxes when they realise Tsipras and Varoufakis have backed down on all their rhetoric, which they basically have; logically thats all they could do to remain in the EZ and prevent civil unrest! Interesting times ahead for the Greeks.
rather than "The Greeks being reluctant to declare their taxes", should read "people living in Greece"
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I just wonder how Tsipras and Varoufakis will go about cracking down on tax evasion? I think its a case of wishful thinking on the part of lots of people. The Greeks will be in an even more reluctant frame of mind to declare their correct taxes when they realise Tsipras and Varoufakis have backed down on all their rhetoric, which they basically have; logically thats all they could do to remain in the EZ and prevent civil unrest! Interesting times ahead for the Greeks.
rather than "The Greeks being reluctant to declare their taxes", should read "people living in Greece"
Gosh, HiFi, you aren't suggesting that there may be expats evading tax, are you? I am deeply shocked.
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Worry not, Ari. I'm sure that all Brits living out here totally love Greece and do all they can to help Greece
's politicians. After all, if Brit MPs can't live on £60,000 a year (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/investigations/11429070/MPs-cant-live-on-60k-a-year-says-Sir-Malcolm-Rifkind.html) how are Greek MPs supposed to manage?
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I just wonder how Tsipras and Varoufakis will go about cracking down on tax evasion? I think its a case of wishful thinking on the part of lots of people. The Greeks will be in an even more reluctant frame of mind to declare their correct taxes when they realise Tsipras and Varoufakis have backed down on all their rhetoric, which they basically have; logically thats all they could do to remain in the EZ and prevent civil unrest! Interesting times ahead for the Greeks.
rather than "The Greeks being reluctant to declare their taxes", should read "people living in Greece"
Quite. Given recent disclosures you could also add "people living in Britain". Or possibly "rich people living in most countries". Given that I've lived off earned or pension income all my life I've had no opportunity to not declare income. And of course pension income is actually taxed twice.
The real issue for Greece/the Eurozone now is what happens after the rhetoric of "both sides won". It is as Medman says down to what will be agreed in the conditions or "reforms" as they are known euphemistically. The focus is now Veroufakis' List rather than the Lagarde List and Ta Nea are currently reporting the Greek Government are "optimistic" about a yes from the finance Ministers. Nevertheless, very far from over IMHO.
Tony
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The democracy may still kick in between now and when the serious stuff happens in the summer (which is why Germany said 4 months, not 6). Will the people of Greece who voted for change (well some change anyway) be happy with any perceived change. Whilst totally different circumstances, could it be another Egypt where they voted for huge change and then felt massively let down by the change they had voted for and so went on the rampage for another change.......
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According to Krugman, Germany are likely to reject anything and everything the Greek side proposes and I'm wondering if Tsipras et al are quietly hoping that's the case. They've (temporarily) given in on a lot of promises made to voters and could (honestly?) say they agreed to lots of concesions but Germany still gave 'em the shove. Unless there's consensus, for sure both sides will blame the other.
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Read an article (biased?) about Finance Minister Varoufakis and his lack of diplomacy. Someone at the EU described it as playing chess with a pigeon - he knocks the pieces over, shits on the board and struts around pretending he's won.
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According to Krugman, Germany are likely to reject anything and everything the Greek side proposes and I'm wondering if Tsipras et al are quietly hoping that's the case. They've (temporarily) given in on a lot of promises made to voters and could (honestly?) say they agreed to lots of concesions but Germany still gave 'em the shove. Unless there's consensus, for sure both sides will blame the other.
It would not surprise me that the Greek plan has always been to make the Germans the instigator of the impasse. Germany throw out the Varofoukis proposals and Greece introduces the Drachma on Wednesday morning. On introduction at 9.00am we have parity where 1 Drachma equals I euro. Greece immediately repays all her debts in Drachma at the flick of a switch and consequently no default. The fun will start as the morning unravels and the Drachma falls through the floor on foreign currency exchanges across the World. Immediately imports will become extremely expensive and Greece will once again have to survive on self sufficiency. All those neglected farms and agricultural villages will have a new lease of life. Life would be extremely harsh for millions. But, and it is a huge but! Greece will be in charge of her own destiny.
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Just one fault in your plan Baldrick. Greece repays it's debts? pmsl
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See Greece got its homework in late. Currently being marked I gather.
Tony
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And having been shown how to doit, Italy, Spain and Portugal follow suit.
This then causes the value of the Euro to rise, making German exports, which drive the whole, more expensive and so they dry up, and completely buggers the Eurozone.
So far so good for the UK, but it means weaker economies throught the whole of the EC which means they can't afford our exports.
Intersting times.
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So as forecast, Greece gets away with it this time.
Big alarm bells for the summer (in my opinion).
Buys Greece time, but also bus Germany time to see what the polls in Spain are doing......
No worries - will be the end of the season before panic on tourism.............
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So Greece got an A for its homework. We'll have to see how they do in the exams in the summer!
I don't think we know yet what was in the Greek "proposals" for "reforms" so we can't really say at the moment how far the compromise has gone although there has clearly been some. But a 4 month extension gives time for the Greek people to see what has really happened and to indicate whether the Greek government and the Troika can really work together. All in all not a bad result for Greece, so far and nothing like the extremes of outcomes that we imagined.
Tony
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Greece debt crisis: Eurozone backs reform plans
Eurozone finance ministers have approved reform proposals submitted by Greece in order to obtain a four-month extension of its bailout.
The Eurogroup said it had agreed to begin national procedures - parliamentary votes in several states to give the deal final approval.
The measures offered by Greece include combating tax evasion and reforming the public sector.
But the head of the IMF said they lacked "clear assurances" in key areas.
http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-31606986
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Read an article (biased?) about Finance Minister Varoufakis and his lack of diplomacy. Someone at the EU described it as playing chess with a pigeon - he knocks the pieces over, shits on the board and struts around pretending he's won.
Varoufakis also played down suggestions he had difficult relations with German Finance Minister Wolfgang Schaeuble. "I continue to say that of all my colleagues at the Eurogroup, I have the greatest respect for Wolfgang Schaeuble," he said. "When he speaks, I enjoy listening to him and disagreeing with him."
http://ekathimerini.com/4dcgi/_w_articles_wsite1_1_25/02/2015_547628
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The German parliament has voted to extend financial aid to Greece by another four months.
The extension - approved by creditors last week in exchange for a series of Greek government reforms - needs to be ratified by eurozone members.
Some MPs had expressed doubts about the deal and there is substantial public scepticism but the vote passed easily.
German Finance Minister Wolfgang Schaeuble spoke in favour of the deal, telling parliament: "We Germans should do everything possible to keep Europe together as much as we can."
"We're not talking about new billions for Greece... rather it's about providing or granting extra time to successfully end this programme," he insisted.
There has been a chorus of scepticism about the deal inside Germany - with Thursday's edition of the largest tabloid, Bild, emblazoned with the word "No!", adding "No more billions for the greedy Greeks!''
But German legislators felt they had no choice but to pass the vote, as a eurozone breakup could prove even more expensive than the bailouts and potentially undermine the credibility of the euro, reports the BBC's Berlin correspondent Damien McGuinness.
http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-31654898
Key points: Greece economic pledges to Europe (http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-31599838)